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Sun of righteousness |
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 Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:18 pm |
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| My name is URL |
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| Quote: | 19 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall set them ablaze, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 20 But unto you that fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall. 21 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I do make, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi Chapter 3 |
| Quote: | Luke 1:
78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
(The word for "dayspring" or "day" in the original Greek is ἀνατολή or anatole, means "sunrise, east.") |
| Quote: | John 1:
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 8:
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life |
| Quote: | Matthew 17:
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. |
The Sun of Righteousness?
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:29 pm |
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| jtheb |
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| Joined: 20 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 1819
9/10/32
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| Location: birmingham uk |
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| I guess you meant something. What was it? |
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14 Those who are unspiritual do not receive the gifts of God's Spirit, for they
are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they
are spiritually discerned. |
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:09 pm |
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| My name is URL |
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| Joined: 20 Aug 2007 |
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You're an intelligent man JtheB - I'm sure you can work it out - But as a pointer:
I was glancing through Ad Nationes by the Church Father Tertullian when I came across this quote:
| Quote: | | "Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity." |
Also he apologies for early church sun-worship in his Apology against the Heathen:
| Quote: | | "...But ye worship victories also, when, in your triumphs, crosses form the inside of the trophies. The whole religion of the camp is a worshipping of the standards above all the gods. All those rows of images on your standards are the appendages of crosses; those hangings on your standards and banners are the robes of crosses.... Others certainly, with greater semblance of nature and of truth, believe the sun to be our God. If this be so, we must be ranked with the Persians; though we worship not the sun painted on a piece of linen, because in truth we have himself in his own hemisphere. Lastly, this suspicion ariseth from hence, because it is well known that we pray towards the quarter of the east. But most of yourselves too, with an affectation of sometimes worshipping the heavenly bodies also, move your lips towards the rising of the sun..." |
What do you think? |
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:42 pm |
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| The Lords way. |
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| Joined: 18 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 9319
24th Sept
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The reason that the east is mentioned is because the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Most Jews are buried stood up and facing the east to meet their Messiah. Most church alters are built with the alter facing the east for the same reason that it is believed Christ will usher in the morning of his new Kingdom.
There is no other God but YHWH/ I am, so nothing really to think about.
The sun and moon are but planets and even the word of God shows that YHWH created the Sun, as he created it and his people knew this, there is not way he could be confused as being it.
Love TLW.xx   |
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 Isaiah 54:17 (King James Version)17.(a)No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. |
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:50 pm |
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| flying finn |
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| Joined: 21 Aug 2007 |
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08.11.1975
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| Location: Finland |
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God created the heavens and the earth, and therefore creation points to its creator. The sun most certainly is a symbol, not only of the risen Christ but also of the Christian hope in the parousia. That is why Christians universally, until the Reformation, orientated their worship towards the East (ad orientem, or as St. Augustine says at the end of his sermons just before the Eucharistic prayer, conversi ad dominum). The pagans worshipped the sun, but Christians worship the one who created the sun and the whole of the cosmos.
I guess that for modern man this is hard to undertsand. Modern man has no concept of symbols. He no longer sees the universe sacramentally, that is, he no longer sees the world we perceive with our senses as pointing to a greater reality. That is why most Christians today worship with priest and people facing each other, which is somewhat of an anomaly in the history of Christian worship. |
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Sancte Henrice, ora pro nobis. |
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:41 am |
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| The Lords way. |
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| Joined: 18 Aug 2007 |
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24th Sept
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| flying finn wrote: | | God created the heavens and the earth, and therefore creation points to its creator. The sun most certainly is a symbol, not only of the risen Christ but also of the Christian hope in the parousia. That is why Christians universally, until the Reformation, orientated their worship towards the East (ad orientem, or as St. Augustine says at the end of his sermons just before the Eucharistic prayer, conversi ad dominum). The pagans worshipped the sun, but Christians worship the one who created the sun and the whole of the cosmos. |
The sun is not a symbol of hope or anything else in the christian or jewish faith.
Exodus 20:3-6.
3.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6.And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
2 peter 1:19-21.
19.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20.Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Christ is the only light of the world that God sent and we are to follow and heed.
John 1:4-13.
4.In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5.And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6.There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7.The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8.He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9.That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11.He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13.Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Spirit and Truth not mans teachings and tradition.
| Quote: |
I guess that for modern man this is hard to undertsand. Modern man has no concept of symbols. He no longer sees the universe sacramentally, that is, he no longer sees the world we perceive with our senses as pointing to a greater reality. That is why most Christians today worship with priest and people facing each other, which is somewhat of an anomaly. |
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the Father but by me. Now Gods abode is with his people living in the true temple. We have a sure hope in our hearts and a brighter light that of Christ unto salvation. The truth that is within us.
Those who have Christ and the Father have the Spirit of Truth to teach them. They do not need man, 1 John 2:27 and Christ and the Prophets confirmed this in
John 6:44-4.
44.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Isaiah 54:13 (King James Version)
13.And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Love TLW.xx
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Isaiah 54:17 (King James Version)17.(a)No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. |
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:22 am |
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| My name is URL |
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| Joined: 20 Aug 2007 |
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Oh I dunno Paul - I think you're being disingenuous to modern man.
Symbols are important.
But this is more a dissertation about the exploration of the Christ as a solar figure.
In his book: Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel, The Rev. Dr. J. Glen Taylor, a theologian and professor of Old Testament and Biblical Proclamation at Wycliffe College makes a detailed study of ancient sun worship not only in the Pagan world but also in Israel, as exhibited by the solar nature of Jesus’ purported Father, the Israelite god Yahweh. Demonstrating the copious substantiation for Israelite sun worship.
In the book he argues that there was, in ancient Israel, a considerable degree of overlap between the worship of the sun and of Yahweh - even that Yahweh was worshipped as the sun in some contexts.
| Quote: | | "Probably the most provocative issue related to the nature of sun worship in ancient Israel...is the specific claim that Yahweh was identified with the sun." |
I cite Ezekiel 8:16:
| Quote: | | "And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshipping the sun toward the east." |
Here we read that it is not just the common people, but the very priests themselves who are engaging in sun worship.
In his conclusion Dr Taylor writes:
| Quote: | | "Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." |
I agree - it is obvious that the sun was worshipped by the Israelites, who associated it with their tribal god Yahweh.
It's a case of like Father, like son; the connection between Jesus and the sun is first evidenced in the last book of the Hebrew Bible which immediately precedes the New Testament and in which the author refers to the "Sun of Righteousness" who will "arise with healing in his wings."
Was Jesus just the Christian version of a Sun God? |
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:10 am |
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| flying finn |
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| Joined: 21 Aug 2007 |
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08.11.1975
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| Location: Finland |
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| Quote: | | "Probably the most provocative issue related to the nature of sun worship in ancient Israel...is the specific claim that Yahweh was identified with the sun." |
I think that's quite a weak argument. Actually, it's a non sequitur, or at least it is by itself.
| Quote: | | "Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." |
This is more interesting. The idea of an icon is exactly the sacramental view of the universe I was refering to. An icon, if you like, is a conduit to the one it represents. As for the Deuteronomic supression of such imagery, God was still unseen to them. Of course, the Incarnation changes all that. |
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Sancte Henrice, ora pro nobis. |
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:57 pm |
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| The Lords way. |
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| Joined: 18 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 9319
24th Sept
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So neither Lucifers duck or Flying flynn can post about anything that comes from true knowledge as taught in the scriptures.
Why am I not surprised that this is about pride, self-belief and more importantly the teachings of men...
Now that got your attentions didn't it. For the truth is that neither of you have read the bible to see what it says. You have only read the things that men have told you about it.
Now seeing as you are both claiming knowledge let us see you argue your way out of this one....
I know you can't cos neither of you have any knowledge of what the bible teaches as being the only acceptable truth that God will acknowledge.
What you have brought to the discussion is mans teaching nothing to do with judaism or christianity. I challenge you both to prove using only scripture that what you have written has any bearing on the reality of the faith of Jews and Christians.
No overlap or worship just God showing abomination.
Ezekiel 8:13-20 (King James Version)
13He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
Which prove even then the true believers never worshipped the sun.
As for you FF try reading the bible before looking for a comment to reply with. The obvious truth was within the passage itself.
I don't know who is worse. Lucifers duck, for pulling the wool over your eyes -him knowing full well it did not say that. Or you for being daft enough to prove to him you hadn't a clue what the passage of scripture said.
Emperor and new clothes and guess who was left stood naked.
Duck your not funny though I am smiling...
 
Love TLW.xx |
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Isaiah 54:17 (King James Version)17.(a)No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. |
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:18 pm |
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| flying finn |
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| Joined: 21 Aug 2007 |
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Sancte Henrice, ora pro nobis. |
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