 |
Is it possible to revoke your baptism...? |
 |
 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:51 pm |
 |
|
| BrotherBliss |
|
 |
| |
| Joined: 18 Dec 2007 |
Posts: 884
6 Dec
|
| Location: UK |
|
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
John Hunt, an atheist, is campaigning for a way of cancelling baptisms given to children who were too young to decide. This seems to be something which has happened to Mr Hunt at St June with St Aidan's some 50 years prior, and now he is seeking to become de-baptised. Baptism means alot to people, even those who might explain that it doesn't. Unfortunately for Mr Hunt he is no more able to officially revoke his baptism in his anglican church, than he is able to remove what is written in historical public records. Revd Nick Baines the bishop of Croydon has simply stated, "you can't remove from the record something that actually happened."
Sadly Mr Hunt has somehow missed the point, many percieve that baptism is a sign of membership to 'the Church'. Though this is true for the Catholic church it is not so for the Anglican communion. Baptism, before it became an incorporated institution and sacrament of the Church, first began because a specific first-century peasant man was baptised in the river Jordan. The roots of Christian baptism originate wih Christ himself. Before baptimal rites were liturgised, baptism was foremost a Christian initiation, as well as a public declaration of Faith. Baptism, in the Christian faith is an outward publicisation of an inward conviction - that Jesus Christ is Lord over all our life, and death - because that is what baptism is about. Death to the old selfish ways, and a new life in God's way of righteousness, it is in dying to our old-selves that we are free to begin to live inwardly and outwardly as a new creation.
So really the issue at stake is not a new one, the baptism of infants has been a contentious issue for other reformed Christian movements. The Ana-baptists also did not believe in paedo-baptism around the time of the protestant reformation. They simply said the established church's infant baptism did not count, and so went about re-baptising believers. However, Mr Hunt has made a move to publically renounce the vows made by his parents and god-parents on his behalf and has declared his 'christening' null and void in the London Gazette, although technially he had already rejected 'confirmation' in the faith at 11.
Now the National Secular Society are once again banging at the Church of England's door, demanding that they devise a formal procedure for cancelling baptisms, with a change in the baptismal roll as part of it. Whether the Anglican Church makes amendments to baptismal records remains to be seen, in the mean time a satirical "Certificate of Debaptism" has been doing the rounds, giving people their own intellectual space to personally revoke their baptisms. However they may have to wait a while longer until they recieve the correct release forms with God's official signature.
For the BBC News story see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7941817.stm
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Is it possible to revoke your baptism...? |
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:06 pm |
|
|
| The Lords way. |
|
 |
| |
| Joined: 18 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 9319
24th Sept
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| BrotherBliss wrote: |
Now the National Secular Society are once again banging at the Church of England's door, demanding that they devise a formal procedure for cancelling baptisms, with a change in the baptismal roll as part of it. Whether the Anglican Church makes amendments to baptismal records remains to be seen, in the mean time a satirical "Certificate of Debaptism" has been doing the rounds, giving people their own intellectual space to personally revoke their baptisms. However they may have to wait a while longer until they recieve the correct release forms with God's official signature.
For the BBC News story see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7941817.stm |
You got to be in it to get out of it. But if it isn't real what are you getting out of?
Well, I want to know why they are bothering in the first place if it does not exist? 
Lord help them to keep their big mouths shut, till they know what they are talking about. 
Love Lynne.xx
  |
|
_________________
 Isaiah 54:17 (King James Version)17.(a)No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. |
|
|
|
|
Re: Is it possible to revoke your baptism...? |
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:36 pm |
|
|
| ralph wiggum |
|
 |
| |
| Joined: 05 Feb 2009 |
Posts: 116
6th June 1966
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| BrotherBliss wrote: | | However they may have to wait a while longer until they recieve the correct release forms with God's official signature. |
As people are baptised with out your "gods" signature (as he is non-existent), they can be revoked without it too! I think the point is more that people don't want to be included in the books of institutions like churches and are choosing to revoke this stupid ceremony thrust upon them by their parents. Once the official numbers are shown, with those who have revoked, I can assure you the number of members quoted by these cults will certainly be smaller!  |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:12 pm |
|
|
| Shaker |
|
 |
| |
| Joined: 19 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 2571
11/06/73
|
| Location: Leicestershire, UK |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: | | Baptism means alot to people, even those who might explain that it doesn't. |
I suppose this is what passes for logic in some circles 
Anyway, it certainly should be possible to revoke any such actions performed without knowledge or consent, but by far the better idea would be to baptise only those people who want to be baptised - namely adults capable of informed consent. Anything else is invalid anyway. The trouble with these things - circumcision is a similar case, but even worse - is that they're never really done for the subject, but always actually done for the parents. If you want to hack bits off somebody, hack them off yourself. If you want to douse yourself with supposedly magic water, fine - take a beach ball and enjoy yourself. But don't involve anybody else, least of all a subject who by definition can have no knowledge and can't give consent. |
|
_________________
"Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:55 pm |
|
|
| BrotherBliss |
|
|
| |
| Joined: 18 Dec 2007 |
Posts: 884
6 Dec
|
| Location: UK |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Lynne wrote: | You got to be in it to get out of it. But if it isn't real what are you getting out of?
Well, I want to know why they are bothering in the first place if it does not exist? |
Alas, we are left wondering!
| Shaker wrote: | | by far the better idea would be to baptise only those people who want to be baptised - namely adults capable of informed consent. |
Which is a very valid position taken by other mainstream independent churches. It is what is known as 'believers baptism' those who believe are baptised and become part of the body of Christ.
Infant baptism looks very different in the Anglican church, although it is deemed as being baptism, it is still divided into two parts: Christening the part of the parents (and god-parents) to raise their children in a good godly way, growing, learning and knowing about the faith, and Confirmation is the part of the individual to affirm their faith for themselves. So at what age do you think an individual is capable of giving informed consent? (It is much younger than 18+)
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:47 am |
|
|
| Shaker |
|
|
| |
| Joined: 19 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 2571
11/06/73
|
| Location: Leicestershire, UK |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| I would probably make it 18, and certainly no earlier than 16. I don't think any minor - somebody of, say, 10 or 11 or a similar age - can credibly have a serious and informed opinion on Christian theology sufficient to be able to espouse Christianity as a lifestyle choice, presumably for the rest of one's life. (After all, as we know only too well, plenty of much older people seem to struggle with that ). We don't expect kids of 13 to like the same bands or the same computer games for very long - why should religion be any different? |
|
_________________
"Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:30 am |
|
|
| Jayem Sea |
|
 |
| |
| Joined: 21 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 2920
+
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| BrotherBliss wrote: |
Infant baptism looks very different in the Anglican church, although it is deemed as being baptism, it is still divided into two parts: Christening the part of the parents (and god-parents) to raise their children in a good godly way, growing, learning and knowing about the faith, and Confirmation is the part of the individual to affirm their faith for themselves. |
In the Orthodox Church both of these (baptism and christmation) are done in infancy. Christmation is the annointing with oil and sealing of the Holy Spirit; as in Catholicism and Anglicanism, it is after Christmation that a person can take holy communion, that is, in the Orthodox church people take communion as soon as they are able to eat solids. Given the Orthodox understandingof what Holy Communion is, medicinal and essential, then it is entirely appropriate to give it to a person as soon as possible. Given too the Orthodox understanding of the Sacraments and the Church in general, it would be unthinkable to not give the Sacraments to someone just because they don't understand them fully.
Btw, confirmation is the same Sacrament as Christmation, just altered and moved to a later age. The oil used in Christmation is blessed by a Bishop, so that the pouring on of the Holy Spirit (laying on of hands) is done by a Bishop, by proxy at least; in Confirmation services I believe that the people being confirmed have hands laid on by the Bishop too (it may have changed now though). |
|
_________________
It's Later Than You Think! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:21 am |
|
|
| Shaker |
|
|
| |
| Joined: 19 Aug 2007 |
Posts: 2571
11/06/73
|
| Location: Leicestershire, UK |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: | | Given the Orthodox understandingof what Holy Communion is, medicinal and essential, then it is entirely appropriate to give it to a person as soon as possible. |
"Medicinal"? What utter, utter bollocks. |
|
_________________
"Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." |
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:58 pm |
|
|
| Paul |
|
 |
| |
| Joined: 07 May 2008 |
Posts: 710
8th November 1975
|
| Location: Järvenpää, Finland |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Baptism leaves an indelible sacramental sign on the recipients soul. No, it cannot be revoked. |
|
_________________
'Modernism leads to atheism and to the annihilation of all religion. The error of Protestantism made the first step on this path; that of Modernism makes the second; atheism makes the next.'
St. Pius X |
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:04 pm |
|
|
| ralph wiggum |
|
|
| |
| Joined: 05 Feb 2009 |
Posts: 116
6th June 1966
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Paul wrote: | | Baptism leaves an indelible sacramental sign on the recipients soul. No, it cannot be revoked. |
"Soul" - another load of bollocks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
