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 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:01 am |
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| Ceramic |
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| Joined: 03 Jun 2009 |
Posts: 779
8/8/1975
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| Claire wrote: | | Hello V, The Orthodox got along just fine for centuries with an allegorical interpretation of Genesis. |
Today is huge for me at work and I am very busy so please do not continue the discussion until I have had an opportunity to give my little brain time to re-digest the points you made ... there are so many that one post can not cover what you ask. For now, I just wanted to make a quick hit-and-run comment on your comment about "allegorical interpretation of Genesis". Indeed, it might be a good thing to separate that into its own thread so that there is a logical progression of thought progression ...
Some people would like to interpret this book (at least the earliest chapters which give the most dificulty) as being an allegory, that poetic way of describing something that is really much closer to our experience.
Roman Catholic thinkers, in recent years for example, have come up with some ingenious ways of "explaining away" Paradise and the fall of man; but in reading these interpretations one has the impression that they have so little respect for the text of Genesis that they treat it as a primitive commentary on some recent scientific theories. This is also an extreme.
St. John Damascene, the eighth-century Father whose views generally sum up the Patristic opinion of the first Christian centuries, specifically states that the allegorical interpretation of Paradise is part of an early heresy and does not belong to the Church.
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Just as a side comment, I appreciate what you are trying to do (by challenging me):
"Please give me evidence for the 'traditional position of the Church'"
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"Please give me concrete examples from Fathers from different schools of thought. I would like to see these statements, that is, the "transformation from one species to another is not possible", statements, literally, in black and white"
However, have you considered that you are putting me in a position where I must be a theologian to answer you with such precision and accuracy! In your original post (which you deleted and then re-posted modified) you remarked that you would be "waiting a very long time ..." for my answer. It made me pause and I thought back to another comment you made, "the silence lasted a whole minute. I'm bored."
What do you think would be the reaction of that person those comments were intended for? I suppose it would be reasonable to say that they will know what you "between the lines" opinion of them is. For the record, that element of intellectual elitism doesnt upset me or make me nervous. I dont feel the pressures of society to be "intellectual" and God has proven to me that it is not necessary for me to know it all since what I need He gives to me at the time I need it. Yes, I am uneducated and I dont actually read that much ...
I am happy to go about your request but I am not a robot that can do that with the click of a finger and I acknowledge my limitations as a human being, so, it is impossible to answer this topic in under a minute to satisfy your insatiable appetite. Perhaps you may have to be bored for a while.
"True theology or knowledge of God, is revealed through prayer"
That statement captures the essence of Orthodoxy and I want to leave that statement with you because the core problem in the discussion between you and me is not about Creation vs Evolution, per se. It is a fundamental difference between Latin West and Byzantine mentality.
The real discussion we need to have is captured not in 'science' - and dont get me wrong, science can be compatible with Orthodoxy but Orthodoxy was not made for science, and I hope you will understand why after so many years this is the reality of Orthodoxy.
Till another time. |
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I was born to love people. It doesn’t concern me if he is a Turk, black, or white. I see in the face of each person the image of God. And for this image of God I am willing to sacrifice everything. |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:08 am |
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| Claire |
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| Joined: 19 Dec 2008 |
Posts: 1692
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| This discussion has nothing to do with intellectual elitism, the clicking finger, etc. There is no need to be defensive. There is plenty of room for discussion, debate and disagreements, so long as we behave decently towards each other, which would be expected of all Orthodox. I was looking forward to a good, healthy discussion. You see a word and read completely the opposite meaning into it. Whatever I write, V, you seem to totally misunderstand or assume that there is some hidden personal agenda, or animosity, where none exists. You make statements, but you seem to think I am not entitled to respond/ you seem to think only yourself is allowed an opinion, etc. Therefore, I see no point in continuing this discussion. |
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"The diversity of the phenomena of nature is so great and the treasures hidden in the heavens so rich precisely in order that the human mind shall never be lacking in fresh nourishment."
-- Johannes Kepler |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:18 am |
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| Ceramic |
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| Joined: 03 Jun 2009 |
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8/8/1975
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| Claire wrote: | | This discussion has nothing to do with intellectual elitism, the clicking finger, etc. There is no need to be defensive. There is plenty of room for discussion, debate and disagreements, so long as we behave decently towards each other, which would be expected of all Orthodox. I was looking forward to a good, healthy discussion. You see a word and read completely the opposite meaning into it. Whatever I write, V, you seem to totally misunderstand or assume that there is some hidden personal agenda, or animosity, where none exists. You make statements, but you seem to think I am not entitled to respond/ you seem to think only yourself is allowed an opinion, etc. Therefore, I see no point in continuing this discussion. |
I dont misunderstand what you write that is on topic.
I do, however, know that your attitude comes through when you dismiss comments as "light-hearted" when in reality they are quite rude provocations.
My replies are not defensive but are to let you know that your comments are not acceptible; but you have the ability of putting words in my mouth down to a fine art and deflecting away from yourself and taking my words out of context in a big way.
I am fine not to continue.
Perhaps you should read Fr Seraphim Rose ... he will tell you word for word exactly what I would have told you because when it comes to actual 'content' in my posts I dont rely on my own opinion in discussions and always voice a theologian from the heart and not my own opinion ... BTW, I used an excerpt from his letter in my post word-for-word. |
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I was born to love people. It doesn’t concern me if he is a Turk, black, or white. I see in the face of each person the image of God. And for this image of God I am willing to sacrifice everything. |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:29 am |
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| Claire |
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| Joined: 19 Dec 2008 |
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| Quote: | | when in reality they are quite rude provocations. |
Thankfully, Christ (and my Spiritual Father) is not as judgmental, or as self-righteous, or as hypocritical as yourself. Believe me, it was this type of attitude that nearly put me off the Truth/Orthodoxy.
| Quote: | | Perhaps you should read Fr Seraphim Rose ... |
I have. I have an answer ready, but, as I say, everything I say gets twisted. You are allowed to make false accusations, but I'm not allowed to respond; you turn around and accuse me of making false accusations when, in fact, all I do is respond to your false accusations. It's called "projection", V. You remind me of a bully. Of course, you'll not see it, you'll not apologise, and this will be "my fault". But you'll happily accuse me of having no humility. |
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"The diversity of the phenomena of nature is so great and the treasures hidden in the heavens so rich precisely in order that the human mind shall never be lacking in fresh nourishment."
-- Johannes Kepler |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:33 pm |
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| Claire |
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| Joined: 19 Dec 2008 |
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| Quote: | | I dont rely on my own opinion |
Same here...
Re Father Seraphim Rose, I could give you plenty of names to back up my point of view. |
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"The diversity of the phenomena of nature is so great and the treasures hidden in the heavens so rich precisely in order that the human mind shall never be lacking in fresh nourishment."
-- Johannes Kepler |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:01 pm |
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| Shaker |
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| Joined: 19 Aug 2007 |
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11/06/73
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| Location: Leicestershire, UK |
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| Quote: | | I have been very clear to state that transformation from one species to another is NOT possible |
Except it is and the evidence is there to prove it. I'd supply some if I didn't think it would be a total waste of keystrokes.
| Quote: | | and I conclude that from the writings of our Saints, even modern and recent ones. |
If they weren't scientists, what the hell are you doing gleaning your uninformed opinions on scientific matters from them? |
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"Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:13 am |
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| Claire |
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| Joined: 19 Dec 2008 |
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Hello V,
This issue is not essential to salvation. We should concentrate on the really important things. Having said that, I strongly suggest that you get your facts straight regarding the Church and her position on the subject of evolution, before you say that someone is "not thinking with an Orthodox mind", for the sake of Orthodoxy, yourself and for your Orthodox brothers and sisters who believe God used evolution as a means of creating. If one continues to insist that people must choose between "a Western mind" and "an Orthodox mind" (this statement is not factually accurate, by the way) one is in danger of turning people away from the source of a much greater truth.
The stance of the Orthodox Church - this pefectly sums up how I feel:
The Old Testament explains the relationship of the Creator and His creation (i.e. the really important things). We are not required to know how God created. Re Genesis, the Church does not say "you must believe in a literal Genesis..", the Church does not say "you must believe that Genesis is allegory..". All this controversy has arisen in recent times. When Christians discarded Tradition, all they were left with was Scripture. This creates a dilemma: with nothing to guide you (there are divisions - different "Truths" - within Christianity) how do you know what is literal? Should the whole Bible be taken literally? The Orthodox Church does not have this problem.
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I don't agree with the whole article, but the author makes some good points...
| Quote: | By Fr. George Nicozisin
The conflict between creationism and evolution has been primarily a struggle between Roman Catholics and Protestants, on the one hand, with scientists, on the other. You will find very little writing in Orthodox Christian circles.
Primarily this is because the Eastern Fathers, generally speaking, did not take a fundamentalist viewpoint of creation. For example, Vladimir Lossky, a great Orthodox theologian of the past century, says in his famous book, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, “The Church always freely makes use the sciences for apologetic (explanatory) purposes, but she never has any cause to defend these relative and changing truths as she defends the unchangeable truth of her doctrines.”
Eastern Orthodox theology finds not real argument with evolution up to the creation of man. And even in that, there is a possibility of accepting some of what has been discovered and continues to be discovered by science. For example, Moses, the author of the Book of Genesis, is writing to illiterate people who are asking some sobering questions while they are wandering all over the Sinai desert for some forty years. He uses a picture language and frames of reference with which they can identify. Nonetheless, the language does not take away from the meaning.
Creation of Man
There are two references to the creation of man in Genesis. The first one is the simple statement made in verse 26 of chapter one:
“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in Our own image, after Our likeness…” and is restated in verse 27: “So God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”
The second reference is in chapter two, verse 7:
“Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”
In Orthodox theology, the two words ”image” and “likeness” are not used interchangeably as they are for Roman Catholics and Protestants. For Orthodox Christians, “image” denotes the powers and faculties with which every human being is endowed by God from the first moment of his existence. “Likeness” is the assimilation, the growth process to God through virtue and grace. We call this growth process “theosis.” For Western theology, man was created perfect in the absolute sense and therefore, when he fell, he fell completely away from God. For Orthodox theology, man was created perfect in the potential sense.
Thus, for example, Ireneus, a Church Father of the Second century, in speaking about creation of Adam and Eve says, “They were a child not yet having their understanding perfected.”
Father John Romanides, a contemporary Orthodox theologian says “Adam and Eve were two children born through the Holy Spirit.”
Did we evolve from animals? Ancient men did not look like us. In fact, they might shudder to see the form and the appearance we, their descendents, have taken.
Even Modern Science agrees that at some point man took on something that made him different from the animal world … he became a rational being (think, discern, evaluate, decide and act).
Orthodox theology would be able to make the transitional acceptance far more readily than Western theology for all the reasons stated above.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstit...gmatics/nicozisin_creationism.htm
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By the way..
| Quote: | | "the silence lasted a whole minute. I'm bored." |
Initially, your post looked like this:
"haha you don't want to be picking fights with anyone"
I'll translate:
| Quote: | | "the silence lasted a whole minute. I'm bored." |
MY silence lasted a whole minute. I'm bored, therefore, I'm "ready for a fight". It's a lighthearted comment. I could go through all my comments, give an explanation, but there is no point. I already said they were lighthearted comments. |
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_________________
"The diversity of the phenomena of nature is so great and the treasures hidden in the heavens so rich precisely in order that the human mind shall never be lacking in fresh nourishment."
-- Johannes Kepler |
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